I always want to fairly represent both sides of an issue, and to be frank, I am less versed in the religious side of this controversial debate.
I understand that many ultra-orthodox genuinely believe they are protecting Israel through prayer. I welcome anyone religious who disagrees with the premise that this law passing is positive to leave a comment so their views are represented here.
Let us continue to respect and learn from one another and find common ground so we can unite and fight back against bigger threats we face.
I do believe there should be a certain number of exemptions for people who want to study full time, I just think it should be limited to less than 1K. The IDF does afford time for prayer, but not to the extinct one would probably need to become a great rabbinic scholar.
Whether they should serve or not, is not the issue.
The issue is that they simply believe the shouldnt.
Now you can bluster and talk tough but here is the bottom line. You are not prepared to deal with the civil strife that you absolutely will get if you attempt to force this issue and they choose to dig their heels in and fight it. Which they very likely will.
Lets assume you jail them. Assume you put in prison 5000 18 year olds every year for four year stretches. Which means you will have 20,000 Haredi youth in prison between the ages of 18-22 at any given year.
Here is what happens
1) any haredi kid trying to join the army will now feel compelled to back his community. This means families will be broken up and people attacked. Which means the people getting the most hurt will be the ones who wanted to join you. Good job. Really showing your worthiness of being a leader.
2) the rest of the community will become more insular. Which means they will necessarily become more dependent on tolerating criminal and abusive elements in their community. Which of course means they will get crazier and even more fanatical. Congratulations.
3) they currently comprise 20% of all kids under 5. This percentage is only going to go up. Putting aside retarded secular fantasies about magically changing this, eventually they will be in a position of power. When that happens what kind of attitude do you want them to have? A bitter hate filled one where they see you as monsters? Or one in which youve made it clear you understand the meaning of the word “compromise”?
Finally, lets not ignore who is making this happen. The Supreme Court of Israel. The same Supreme Court that has been using every political asset it has in a fight to the death to make sure it doesnt get reformed. Are you seriously telling me that they are doing this out of principle?
The Haredim are not blameless, any more than you are. And yes, you, like them, carry a lot of blame for this situation. And you, like them, wont hear any of it. Because you (the secular), like them, are too pig headed to listen to anyone when you think you are right.
But we are at a different crossroads. The court is hoping to put the PM in an impossible situation. They are doing this specifically to destroy the war effort. Because they know very well that if they can do that they canbreak the PM, if they break the PM (chas vshalom) they save their wretched little corrupt racket.
The Haredim have to make a terrible choice. Compromise their principles which they completely believe for the sake of retarded ego maniacs (you, their brothers), or be retarded ego maniacs themselves, not compromise their principles and sink the entire country.
To my complete and total disgust, I know exactly which one you have chosen. You prefer to sink the whole country for your fucking ego.
I could spit directly in your face for this btw.
Not because you are trying to force them against their will to do something they completely oppose, but bc you are so wrapped up in your head you think doing it now is actually a good idea.
Frankly, you all disgust me.
Hopefully, for all our sakes they will find a better path. One that doesnt tear the entire country apart, cost us the war effort and leave us in control of the sociopathic psychotics currently calling itself the “Left”.
First, thank you for taking the time to share your opinion in detail. I hope we can have a dialogue before during and after you spit in my face.
Would be opposed to Haredim doing civil service as opposed to military service, but contributing some part of their lives towards helping Israel in a way other than through prayer?
I do think the integration will be difficult and fraught with potential peril, but I do believe it’s important and worth pursuing.
Forget it. I came back to delete what i wrote bc I realized you simply wouldn’t grasp it. Your comment shows me i was right.
Ill make this simpler:
this isnt the time for it.
You want to do this, do it AFTER we get past a war that could potentially kill us all. Just a friendly suggestion. But please, dont let my worthless opinion to consider practical realities ever ever ever get in between one of my brothers and his desire to act on principle.
Some worthy endeavours need a catalyst to get done. Something this painful doesn’t get done in peacetime. Let’s hope this brings us all closer together, in time, instead of tearing us further apart.
I didn’t criticise. I respect religious Jews are genuine about their beliefs even though I don’t share them. I think their contributions are important, but you’re quick to dismiss patriotic Israelis who are secular it seems for their contributions. The reality is, not every religious Jew is seriously committed to their studies who were exempted. Had the system not been taken advantage of, it likely wouldn’t have needed to be overturned.
The status quo was unsustainable, let’s establish a new reality. If it ends as you prophesied in civil war, then I hope that pain and suffering will lead to a new paradigm that is unsustainable.
We can’t stay stagnate and die a death of a thousand cuts because we don’t want to kick over certain rocks because we fear what’s underneath them.
Wounds that are infected don’t heal on their own, they need intervention for the patient to get better. We have to admit we have a lot of infected wounds that we should no longer allow to fester
Whats more, its disgusting that you would even consider this to a good time to force this issue.
Your actions and attitude effectively justify every single abuse of the smolanim. Bc you are only differing on purpose not on method.
So are you OK with them shutting down the country? After all they regard your actions as an “infected wound” or whatever other half baked rationalization you came up with.
So its Ok they shut down tel aviv for ten months. We “need change” and that justifies anything
Its OK that they find desperate parents to parade around to demand the PM resigns, its OK to play endless political games and backstab us with our enemies. Because its a “featering wound” that “needs to be acknowledged”.
There are no free lunches in real life. You think you can make clever phrases to justify forcing others to act against their will and you think it wont come right back to bite you.
Wow, I was right with you up until the point you start talking about being disgusted by people and spitting in their faces. You had something really good to offer and undermine it with that kind of rhetoric.
my rhetoric was not written for the benefit of strangers. It was written specifically for our blood so that they fully grasp the cost of what they are doing. And not hide their emotions behind cold logic.
It is hot precisely because they chose to go cold.
I am saying “no. You do not get to go cold on this. You do not get to hide behind a smug expression and make decisions with the lives of others amd ignore the real human costs to both individuals and society at large. Do whatever you think you need to. But whatever you do, rest assured that me or someone like me will shove your face directly into the suffering and consequences of thst decision.
It’s complicated. I didn’t focus heavily on explaining their side because I’d rather someone from that community do it justice. I’ll ask a friend to leave a comment explaining the major Hasidic view on this topic.
As was mentioned earlier, this is an important issue and deserves attention, but now is not the time. Let’s get through this war first. The idea that drafting the haredi will make things any easier is some kind of weird fantasy. I think they should do some kind of national service and maybe some of them should be in the military proper but now is not the time. Does Israel really need yet another conflict right now?
I wonder if in Mr Yona Kruskals case if a terrorist had a weapon trained on one of his 11 progeny if that might change his outlook on military service. There’s always Duvid Ha Melech he sure was one fine soldier even though his libido wouldn’t play well in the 2024 world.
I always want to fairly represent both sides of an issue, and to be frank, I am less versed in the religious side of this controversial debate.
I understand that many ultra-orthodox genuinely believe they are protecting Israel through prayer. I welcome anyone religious who disagrees with the premise that this law passing is positive to leave a comment so their views are represented here.
Let us continue to respect and learn from one another and find common ground so we can unite and fight back against bigger threats we face.
If these rabbinic scholars want time and space to pursue their studies, then they must serve in the IDF that allows them that freedom
I do believe there should be a certain number of exemptions for people who want to study full time, I just think it should be limited to less than 1K. The IDF does afford time for prayer, but not to the extinct one would probably need to become a great rabbinic scholar.
Israel supports and protects them. They should reciprocate
Whether they should serve or not, is not the issue.
The issue is that they simply believe the shouldnt.
Now you can bluster and talk tough but here is the bottom line. You are not prepared to deal with the civil strife that you absolutely will get if you attempt to force this issue and they choose to dig their heels in and fight it. Which they very likely will.
Lets assume you jail them. Assume you put in prison 5000 18 year olds every year for four year stretches. Which means you will have 20,000 Haredi youth in prison between the ages of 18-22 at any given year.
Here is what happens
1) any haredi kid trying to join the army will now feel compelled to back his community. This means families will be broken up and people attacked. Which means the people getting the most hurt will be the ones who wanted to join you. Good job. Really showing your worthiness of being a leader.
2) the rest of the community will become more insular. Which means they will necessarily become more dependent on tolerating criminal and abusive elements in their community. Which of course means they will get crazier and even more fanatical. Congratulations.
3) they currently comprise 20% of all kids under 5. This percentage is only going to go up. Putting aside retarded secular fantasies about magically changing this, eventually they will be in a position of power. When that happens what kind of attitude do you want them to have? A bitter hate filled one where they see you as monsters? Or one in which youve made it clear you understand the meaning of the word “compromise”?
Finally, lets not ignore who is making this happen. The Supreme Court of Israel. The same Supreme Court that has been using every political asset it has in a fight to the death to make sure it doesnt get reformed. Are you seriously telling me that they are doing this out of principle?
The Haredim are not blameless, any more than you are. And yes, you, like them, carry a lot of blame for this situation. And you, like them, wont hear any of it. Because you (the secular), like them, are too pig headed to listen to anyone when you think you are right.
But we are at a different crossroads. The court is hoping to put the PM in an impossible situation. They are doing this specifically to destroy the war effort. Because they know very well that if they can do that they canbreak the PM, if they break the PM (chas vshalom) they save their wretched little corrupt racket.
The Haredim have to make a terrible choice. Compromise their principles which they completely believe for the sake of retarded ego maniacs (you, their brothers), or be retarded ego maniacs themselves, not compromise their principles and sink the entire country.
To my complete and total disgust, I know exactly which one you have chosen. You prefer to sink the whole country for your fucking ego.
I could spit directly in your face for this btw.
Not because you are trying to force them against their will to do something they completely oppose, but bc you are so wrapped up in your head you think doing it now is actually a good idea.
Frankly, you all disgust me.
Hopefully, for all our sakes they will find a better path. One that doesnt tear the entire country apart, cost us the war effort and leave us in control of the sociopathic psychotics currently calling itself the “Left”.
First, thank you for taking the time to share your opinion in detail. I hope we can have a dialogue before during and after you spit in my face.
Would be opposed to Haredim doing civil service as opposed to military service, but contributing some part of their lives towards helping Israel in a way other than through prayer?
I do think the integration will be difficult and fraught with potential peril, but I do believe it’s important and worth pursuing.
Forget it. I came back to delete what i wrote bc I realized you simply wouldn’t grasp it. Your comment shows me i was right.
Ill make this simpler:
this isnt the time for it.
You want to do this, do it AFTER we get past a war that could potentially kill us all. Just a friendly suggestion. But please, dont let my worthless opinion to consider practical realities ever ever ever get in between one of my brothers and his desire to act on principle.
Some worthy endeavours need a catalyst to get done. Something this painful doesn’t get done in peacetime. Let’s hope this brings us all closer together, in time, instead of tearing us further apart.
My one hope is that you havent, in your emotion driven stupidity and ego, managed to kill the exact change we need.
You just took a gun that the smolanim put in your hand and then fired it directly into our balls.
The amount of cursing i have for you cant fit on a page.
Hah, we may never agree on most political issues, but I’ll always respect a clever writer who can sling a great insult. Lila tov.
I am trying to keep you from killing us.
And he tells me “lets hope” in the same breath as he criticized the Haredim for relying on “prayers”.
Zero self awareness.
Like I said, you are both responsible for this situation.
I didn’t criticise. I respect religious Jews are genuine about their beliefs even though I don’t share them. I think their contributions are important, but you’re quick to dismiss patriotic Israelis who are secular it seems for their contributions. The reality is, not every religious Jew is seriously committed to their studies who were exempted. Had the system not been taken advantage of, it likely wouldn’t have needed to be overturned.
The status quo was unsustainable, let’s establish a new reality. If it ends as you prophesied in civil war, then I hope that pain and suffering will lead to a new paradigm that is unsustainable.
We can’t stay stagnate and die a death of a thousand cuts because we don’t want to kick over certain rocks because we fear what’s underneath them.
Wounds that are infected don’t heal on their own, they need intervention for the patient to get better. We have to admit we have a lot of infected wounds that we should no longer allow to fester
I will repeat myself again. This is not the time.
Whats more, its disgusting that you would even consider this to a good time to force this issue.
Your actions and attitude effectively justify every single abuse of the smolanim. Bc you are only differing on purpose not on method.
So are you OK with them shutting down the country? After all they regard your actions as an “infected wound” or whatever other half baked rationalization you came up with.
So its Ok they shut down tel aviv for ten months. We “need change” and that justifies anything
Its OK that they find desperate parents to parade around to demand the PM resigns, its OK to play endless political games and backstab us with our enemies. Because its a “featering wound” that “needs to be acknowledged”.
There are no free lunches in real life. You think you can make clever phrases to justify forcing others to act against their will and you think it wont come right back to bite you.
Wow, I was right with you up until the point you start talking about being disgusted by people and spitting in their faces. You had something really good to offer and undermine it with that kind of rhetoric.
my rhetoric was not written for the benefit of strangers. It was written specifically for our blood so that they fully grasp the cost of what they are doing. And not hide their emotions behind cold logic.
It is hot precisely because they chose to go cold.
I am saying “no. You do not get to go cold on this. You do not get to hide behind a smug expression and make decisions with the lives of others amd ignore the real human costs to both individuals and society at large. Do whatever you think you need to. But whatever you do, rest assured that me or someone like me will shove your face directly into the suffering and consequences of thst decision.
I agree. Do they want to help save Israel or keep the status quo.
Very interesting article. Thanks, Jason. I find it very difficult to understand what their reasons are to justify avoiding military service.
It’s complicated. I didn’t focus heavily on explaining their side because I’d rather someone from that community do it justice. I’ll ask a friend to leave a comment explaining the major Hasidic view on this topic.
As was mentioned earlier, this is an important issue and deserves attention, but now is not the time. Let’s get through this war first. The idea that drafting the haredi will make things any easier is some kind of weird fantasy. I think they should do some kind of national service and maybe some of them should be in the military proper but now is not the time. Does Israel really need yet another conflict right now?
yes
Absolutely !!
I agree, considerably less than 1k.
Natan Sifkin's Substack is a great source for the debate over the Charedim serving. Well worth checking out.
Thank you!
You live there, you defend it. I presume the IDF has chaplains? Be a chaplain if you object to fighting.
I wonder if in Mr Yona Kruskals case if a terrorist had a weapon trained on one of his 11 progeny if that might change his outlook on military service. There’s always Duvid Ha Melech he sure was one fine soldier even though his libido wouldn’t play well in the 2024 world.
Oo oo you know how military things always like to use acronyms well try this Rear Echelon Bums Because of Exemption what do you get REBBE go team.
https://foreignlocal.substack.com/p/who-are-the-real-extremists?utm_medium=email&utm_content=post
Absolutely. I agree.